I think I have to get a new veterinarian, which I hate. I hope I don't have to do anything more drastic than that. I need everyone's advice. I apologize for the length of the post, but I want you to have as much information as possible before weighing in.
Here's the deal:
First, the bad stuff:
We have used the same vet for more than 10 years -- he took care of our last dogs for most of their lives (both of those dogs were Labradors). We have always liked this vet. But, he has had bad experiences with Danes.
Layla is our 11-month old Dane pup. We got her from a breeder when she was 7.5 weeks old. She's always been timid, especially around men. One of her reactions around new men, when she is in an environment where she is uncomfortable (like the Vet's office), is to growl. She has never bitten anyone, we correct her when she growls, and she's always allowed the vet to handle her, examine her, give shots, etc. But she has growled at men, including our vet, on several occasions. At home, she is super protective when a stranger enters the house. She will bark, and sometimes growl, at strangers (esp. men) in our house until she has had time/opportunity to "check them out" by sniffing them while they stand still. She has never made an aggressive move toward a stranger in our house.
Based on this growling behavior, when Layla was about four months old, to our great dismay, our vet recommended that we get rid of Layla (he was not specific about HOW we should do that). The vet said that, in his experience, dogs like this (specifically Danes) who show this kind of fearful growling, typically become fear-biters and are simply not trustworthy. We have two boys (ages 8 and almost 6), and our vet said he would not trust Layla around our boys' friends (and maybe not around our kids either).
When our vet made that recommendation last year, we felt awful. We told him we were going to do everything we could to socialize Layla, that we would be very careful and vigilant about it, but we were unwilling to give up on her. One of my socialization programs (among others described below) was to take her into the vet on random occasions, just to say "Hi." I would sit with her in the waiting area, he would come out and take her leash, go without me into the back, get her to sit for him, and then bring her back out to me on leash. This seemed to work fine, and she did not growl at him during those visits.
Today, I brought Layla in for a bordetella update (we plan on leaving her and Turbo (her Labrador "brother") in a doggy camp next weekend while we're traveling). Again, in the examination room (very small space), when the vet entered, she gave two short, low growls. She made no aggressive (or other) move toward him, I corrected her, and she stopped. The vet told me that he believed she was about to bite him, and that he "didn't want to do anything with her." I convinced him to let me take her back into the waiting area and have him take her leash without me, as we had done last summer during our socialization visits. He did that, gave her the shot, and she did fine. But clearly, this vet does not want anything to do with our dog.
Now, the good stuff:
We have taken Layla to three separate eight-week sessions of obedience training at the Dog Training Club of Dallas County (in Duncanville). She went to a puppy class, and two beginner classes. For these classes, one of us would go with her once a week, where there would be 15 to 25 other dogs and their owners, along with a trainer, in a group class. Last summer, in her puppy class, she was TERRIBLY timid at first, and would shy away from all other people -- though she didn't growl at anyone. By the end of that eight-week period, however, she got the award for "most socially improved." Then, over the ensuing months, she and Turbo both attended two eight-week "beginner" obedience sessions. During both of those sessions, Layla eagerly interacted/played with other dogs, she allowed both women and men to approach her and pet/examine her (both during a "sit for exam" and/or just casually).
Over the last nine months, have taken Layla to approximately 15 different soccer games where our children have played soccer. At all of those games, she is surrounded by kids of all ages, adults, and other dogs. The kids usually mob her, which she doesn't mind at all. She has never growled at a kid or otherwise shown anything other than affection for children (she can easily overwhelm a child if she's in a playful/active mood, but that's a different issue). When adults approach her at soccer games (men or women), she occasionally shies away, but she usually allows them to approach and pet her. She does not growl in that environment.
We also take Layla and Turbo regularly to both the White Rock Lake dog park and the Bark Park downtown. Off-lead, she often shies away from strangers who approach her, but she has never growled or otherwise threatened. She interacts beautifully with other dogs.
We think Layla is highly unlikely to bite anyone, but I understand that a vet who has had bad experiences must base his judgment on those experiences. And, he knows more about dogs than I do.
What do you folks think? New vet?
What are your recommendations?
opinion from a vet
From reading your post I first want to say kudos to you on all the hard work you have done with your pup! You have put a lot of effort and hard work into something that a lot of people would have neglected.
I think that you should be able to enjoy your visits to the vet and find a vet who best suits you and your needs- and one of your needs is a vet with the patience and desire to work with a dog who has put off some scary signals.
In short defense of the vet at hand- we have lots of people who come in with growling dogs who tell us that they will not bite. Most of these individuals have not put the hard work and effort into working on a behavior problem as you have. We are left to follow our instincts in an attempt to keep all of our fingers. While danes are gentle giants for the most part at home, we do see a few that have fear aggression issues. We are far more likely to be overly cautious with a giant breed dog than with a chihuahua.
From my viewpoint you have three solutions.
1) Get a different vet. Find one with experience with behavior issues if possible
2) Work with your current vet on a solution. Your vet has already worked with you on getting Layla to be good with him on leash. Many of the pups who have fear issues are more likely to be "aggressive" when their owner is with them (percieved backup) than while they are alone or under the control of someone else. Instead switching vets maybe you could set up appointments where you talk briefly about Layla in the waiting room, he takes her back and examines and vaccinates her, and returns her to you and goes over whatever he may see.
3) Muzzle train her. Teach her to enjoy (by slowly introducing, with yummy rewards) wearing a cloth or cage muzzle. Muzzles often have a calming effect on dogs who have been trained to wear them for 3 reasons. 1) the pressure on the back of the head, if it is a close fitting cloth muzzle 2) the good associations with training to wear the muzzle 3) the removal of the option of fight (as in fight, flight, or freeze as a response to a scary situation). The muzzle also offers both of you the safety of knowing she will never be put in a situation to need rabies quarantine, which for a dog like her would be terrifying.
If you have any questions for me, or if you just want a recommendation for a vet let me know at cassie [at] danerescue [dot] net
Thank you all for the
Thank you all for the supportive comments. This has depressed me all day, but it helps to know that there is a community of people who understands.
Now, who has vet recommendations in central Dallas for me? We live in north Oak Cliff, near downtown.
If it's not appropriate to name the vets here on the forum, please just send me a private message.
Thanks so much.
new vet
when we got our first dane we went to about 3 or 4 places before we found one who was comfortable with the danes. luckily not only does this guy love the big dogs but is very thorough and even better, is only 4 blocks from our house!
all the staff is comfortable with the danes as well which puts the dogs at ease too.
hope you get this lucky in finding a new one. your best bet is to speak to other big dog owners, preferably danes and get their recommentdations.
It sounds like she really
It sounds like she really doesnt like this vet. Maybe he is afraid of danes and is sending a bad signal to her and she is becoming afraid because of it. Our vet is AMAZING and absolutely loves Danes. Depending on where you live you may be too far but if you would like to give him a call I could give you his info. Just let me know! Hope it all works out for you!!!
Danielle :]
You are doing everything correctly
My Maggie Mae did not like my vet nor any of his staff - even though she never bit anyone, there were several close calls. Each time I would inform the vet or his staff that she was about to bite, but they ignored my warnings, so my thought process was if you get bit it is your fault because I warned you and Maggie was warning them as well...I hate to say it, but I think you need to seek out another vet. Vet's need to work with the dog and try to help the dog. From what you said I don't think your vet is doing very much to help the situation. He is probably afraid of Layla and he should not be afraid...I would try and find a vet that understands dogs (danes or not) that have timid issues. I applaud you for what you are doing with Layla - you are doing everything correctly to socialize her. Keep up the good work and look for a vet that understands Layla timid issues. Again, I think you are doing a wonderful job - keep up the good work!
Judy, Scooby, and Daphne
I'm not an expert...
I'm sure you'll hear from others here that are, but my gut is saying that it's the fear of the vet that is triggering her old fears...I'd definitely get another Vet!
To hear that your vet has had problems with Danes is a big tigger for me!? Granted being care for if they're hurt and scared isn't their best time, but I've never, ever heard someone say they've had trouble with Danes, especially a professional. I'm suspect of him.
One other thing. Since Layla is shy with strangers and some people, I'd just tell those who approach her to please not too. Just ask them to ingnore her and to let her come to them when she's ready...she will when she's comfortable. I've found that to be the best way to get over being shy/scared with people. Be patient, it does work.
I'm sure you'll get a lot more really good advice here. Lots of good luck!